Curse

Sytherek · Nov 10, 2010, 08:39 PM // 20:39

Wow, I must be playing a different game.

I never use SY or AOTH or AP. Yeah, I know them, just never saw them as necessary. I've never found any content (including all variations of Hard Mode) that even remotely required spamming SY constantly.

Weird.

NerfHerder · Nov 10, 2010, 09:02 PM // 21:02

PvP Changes

Most of my XP is in "non PvP-PvP"(AB,JQ,RA,FA). I use to "Press B" alot just to see how the PvP meta is evolving. As anything GvG or HA related is bound to effect the PvP I like to do. Only problem is, I dont think the PvP meta game is evolving at all. It seems pretty stagnant. I see the same cookie cutter builds all the time. My suggestion(i cant wait for the QQs), is to shake up the PvP meta. Make the current meta obsolete or at least add a larger variety viable builds. I have a gut feeling ANet will try to do the latter, and bring in more build options to GvG. When will they do this? not anytime soon.

Hexway, its not like its something new. Personally, I feel buffing anti-hex skills would be a more dynamic solution vs. nerfs. Excuse me, let me put my hater blockers on. Okay, go ahead.

PvE Changes

AoHM is the culprit, not scythes. If Anet is really listening to its players, they will tie AoHM to Mysticism/Dervs. That change alone would make only Sins slightly better with a scythe Vs a AoHM Derv. From there it would only take a few well thought out Dervish buffs to put him on top as the best scythe user. Easiest solution ever. Also, get rid of the Holy dmg conversion. This would allow players the option of going physical or Holy support. Again, really easy fix.

Another change I think we might see are Avatar buffs. Mostly in the form of utility. ie Lyssa provides interrupts, Balthazaar gives AP or KDs, etc.

I'm skeptical about Dervish enchantment buffs. Even though they could use some, it runs the risk of being either way OP or still totally useless.

Mysticism, its the most worthless Primary attribute in the game. I think this will change as well.

Other predictions:

600/smite, uh... I mean Shadow Form and ER Eles will remain untouched, even though Anet is against invincibuilds.

SoS spirit spammers will remain the best and easiest solo farmers ever made. Give me a 4 year old and a red bull, and ill get you a stack of ectos before the nights over.

We might see a decent Paragon skill update sometime after 6 months.

Smite monk buff, I doubt I will be around to see it.

Elementalists and Rangers will lag behind the power creep untill GW2 comes out.

Jaigoda · Nov 10, 2010, 09:08 PM // 21:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by drkn

As noted by yourself, it's your personal list - aka your personal preference. Not the real usefulness of classes.
A class is as useful as the player rolling it. As it's build. As it's synergy with other chars/heroes present during the VQ/mission. There are builds that are severely broken and can achieve a lot (sin/war with scythe, SF in general, ER ele, spiritmancer...) but that's the problem of builds, not classes - and if we rank them, a more hollistic approach should be taken.

Coming from Ensign, a "personal list" is probably pretty damn close to the truth. And the majority of PvE builds nowadays take next to no skill to play, especially the ones that are at the top right now (daggers, scythes). And the best build of a class is what that class is generally defined as. Sins are at the top because they have the best builds overall. It's not that difficult.

Quote:

Originally Posted by drkn

The reason why you ranked mes on 8th position and ranger as the last is that you a) have never really played them; or b) couldn't play them on a decent level; or c) had less fun when playing them than when playing your top classes.

No, he explained why he ranked them that. There isn't anything a Ranger can do that other classes don't do better. Sure, they can do scythes, but Dervs, Warriors, and Wars can do much better with them. And "Couldn't play them on a decent level..." El oh el.

Quote:

Originally Posted by drkn

And that's fine, but just keep in mind that 'ranking classes by their general usefulness' is totally subjective, much because the classes are very complex and have wide variety of roles, skills, builds and options to run.

It's partly subjective, yes. And Ensign even said that it was his personal list. And PvE classes are far from complex; sure, there's lots of roles you can play, but at the moment there are very clearly builds that are superior to everything else that class can play (Ele is the best example of this).

Quote:

Originally Posted by drkn

Because of that, i'd rather settle down to discussing broken mechanics and builds rather than classes. Dervishes are cool, but the two obvious problems are that a) other classes can do better with their primairy weapon; and b) their primairy attribute is generally useless (just as FC used to be, but got a tad buffed in PvE, and with that little Mindbender nerf it turned out quite ok).

Did you even read Ensign's post earlier? He already said that Dervs are outclassed by the other melee professions, but they're still way ahead of all the other professions. And FC was always way more useful than Mysticism, there's no comparison. The main problem was that Mesmers didn't have very much OP stuff to work with until PI and Panic, among other things, got buffed.

Quote:

Originally Posted by NerfHerder

AoHM is the culprit, not scythes. If Anet is really listening to its players, they will tie AoHM to Mysticism/Dervs. That change alone would make only Sins slightly better with a scythe Vs a AoHM Derv. . .

Just one thing to note - If Sins and Wars can't use AoHM, it'll put them waaay below Dervs. It's more than a 50% actual damage increase, even at modest rank. Plus, Dervs would have an open secondary, which would pretty much deem Crit Scythe completely obsolete. That would probably reorder the top 3 as Derv; Sin; War. Whether that would be a good thing or not is up for decision.

reaper with no name · Nov 10, 2010, 09:14 PM // 21:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reformed

Obviously you like the ring this has to it or you wouldn't have used the exact same argument in the great Shadow Form debate. It was wrong then and it's still wrong now. The fact that Dervishes don't have anything special to offer in terms of party role is why they are sidelined not this metric of DPS that keeps popping up. If you won't take to heart what others keep telling you then you should probably still pay attention to Ensign, he knows what the hell he is talking about.

So, you admit that the dervish has nothing useful it can offer to any given party in PvE, and yet you think that it isn't a problem?

I bring up DPS in relation to the dervish because as a melee class, that is it's job (with the secondary responsibility of abusing SY). If it cannot do it's job as effectively as the competition, it will be sidelined.

In terms of melee damage, yes, the dervish is the third most powerful class in the game. We all know that. However, I think you're forgetting that there is more to this game than that. There's ranged damage and healing and minions and protection and stuff. None of these things are done well by the dervish either.

Even rangers can offer the party something that no one else can. Every class should be able to do that.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Scary

But one big difference !!!!! I no it is not about me. And I wouldn't care less
if SF could not be used anymore... No I say, leave those PvE only skills alone.
It's PvP what needs balance. And as I sayd... I don't farm I don'd do SC's.
So... And who in earth only want to use only build A... if that was the case
I would visit PvX, Which I don't...

A big differnece in what I say comparing to you ( if I understand you right)
Is.. I say, I dont care about NF, but leave the PvE only skills alone.
They are a choice not a obligation to use. So no It is not only about me.
If it where up to you... is nerf the ^$*#^$#^ PvE skills so nobody has any
use of them. Than yo wouldn't have a choice

You are misunderstanding me. As an example, I wouldn't nerf SY. It is necessary to give paragons something worth doing in this game.

I don't want to antagonize you, but to help you understand what I'm saying, let's take your last sentence to it's logical conclusion. If all PvE skills were nerfed (which again, I do not want to do), would that prevent you from using them, any more than those skills currently prevent you from using underpowered skills now? No. It's the exact same thing. You don't want them to be nerfed because it would make your characters less effective. Well, what if some (not necessarily all, but some) of those same skills were making other people's characters less effective? There are some skills out there that do to other people exactly what you don't want happening to you.

I see your profession is Necromancer. So, let's say that tomorrow necros get nerfed in such a way that Ritualists suddenly become better with MoP, Orders, Minions, and everything else the necromancer is supposed to do. You wouldn't like that very much, would you? I know I wouldn't (I'd have to start campaigning on behalf of necromancers like I infamously do with the dervish!).

Fortunately, that's not likely to happen. But for Elementalists, this is a daily reality. Ritualists and Necromancers and Mesmers are all out there outdoing them at their job. The only thing keeping Elementalists from being sidelined even more than dervishes are is the fact that they happen to have an elite skill which allows them to spam infuse health and prots or Orders (for this reason, as overpowered as ER is right now, I would not want to nerf it; it's a necessary evil, as many overpowered skills in this game are).

Some skills that are overpowered are acceptable, because they do not make other classes less effective at their jobs by comparison. In fact, some classes depend on PvE skills just to remain relevant (I once again point to the Paragon as an example of this). But then there are others such as the old Ursan, which leave other classes out in the cold by rendering them obsolete. These are the skills that are bad and need to be nerfed.

Jaigoda · Nov 10, 2010, 09:35 PM // 21:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by reaper with no name

So, you admit that the dervish has nothing useful it can offer to any given party in PvE, and yet you think that it isn't a problem?

I bring up DPS in relation to the dervish because as a melee class, that is it's job (with the secondary responsibility of abusing SY). If it cannot do it's job as effectively as the competition, it will be sidelined.

The Dervish doesn't have anything *special* to offer. They still have something useful, it's just not unique. They still have retarded DPS, and if Sins and Warriors didn't exist they would be by far the best prof in the game. As is, they aren't the best at anything, but they're still good enough that other professions deserve a buff more than they do.

Quote:

Originally Posted by reaper with no name

In terms of melee damage, yes, the dervish is the third most powerful class in the game. We all know that. However, I think you're forgetting that there is more to this game than that. There's ranged damage and healing and minions and protection and stuff. None of these things are done well by the dervish either.

You still need damage. And Dervs provide lots of it. Sure, if you're trying to be totally optimal, you wouldn't want to take a Derv, but besides in farming groups (which isn't in discussion at this point) that doesn't really matter. On the other hand, Ele's and Ranger have next to no place in groups whatsoever, because they're pretty much bad at everything (with the exception or ER, but almost no one I have seen actually plays that).

Quote:

Originally Posted by reaper with no name

Even rangers can offer the party something that no one else can. Every class should be able to do that.

Such as? Daze? Pets? Sure, there's some stuff they can do, but it's either done better by others, or just plain not needed.

Reformed · Nov 10, 2010, 09:37 PM // 21:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by reaper with no name

So, you admit that the dervish has nothing useful it can offer to any given party in PvE, and yet you think that it isn't a problem?

I bring up DPS in relation to the dervish because as a melee class, that is it's job (with the secondary responsibility of abusing SY). If it cannot do it's job as effectively as the competition, it will be sidelined.

In terms of melee damage, yes, the dervish is the third most powerful class in the game. We all know that. However, I think you're forgetting that there is more to this game than that. There's ranged damage and healing and minions and protection and stuff. None of these things are done well by the dervish either.

Even rangers can offer the party something that no one else can. Every class should be able to do that.

No, I'm admitting they have no specialized task they excel at. They can still push a massive amount of DPS, far in excess of any caster, which is why your constant crying about damage is flat out wrong. Just because they are a redundant profession, and they are, does not automatically make them bad. The ability to spam SY! doesn't count as protection? It's easily in the top 3 for most overpowered skills in the entire game.

Do you honestly think normal PvE play is going to require 12+ Beast Mastery or Wilderness Survival for anything? Rangers are at the bottom by a wide margin, they are absolutely horrible.

reaper with no name · Nov 10, 2010, 10:09 PM // 22:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jaigoda

The Dervish doesn't have anything *special* to offer. They still have something useful, it's just not unique. They still have retarded DPS, and if Sins and Warriors didn't exist they would be by far the best prof in the game. As is, they aren't the best at anything, but they're still good enough that other professions deserve a buff more than they do.

You still need damage. And Dervs provide lots of it. Sure, if you're trying to be totally optimal, you wouldn't want to take a Derv, but besides in farming groups (which isn't in discussion at this point) that doesn't really matter. On the other hand, Ele's and Ranger have next to no place in groups whatsoever, because they're pretty much bad at everything (with the exception or ER, but almost no one I have seen actually plays that).

Such as? Daze? Pets? Sure, there's some stuff they can do, but it's either done better by others, or just plain not needed.

For one example of what a ranger can do that no one else can (and there are admittedly precious few examples), they can provide ranged physical AoE while spamming SY. The only other class combo that can do that is the warrior, and they aren't as good at it.

My definition of the word "useful" in that context was likely the same as your definition of "special" in this context. I apologize for not being more clear.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reformed

No, I'm admitting they have no specialized task they excel at. They can still push a massive amount of DPS, far in excess of any caster, which is why your constant crying about damage is flat out wrong. Just because they are a redundant profession, and they are, does not automatically make them bad. The ability to spam SY! doesn't count as protection? It's easily in the top 3 for most overpowered skills in the entire game.

Do you honestly think normal PvE play is going to require 12+ Beast Mastery or Wilderness Survival for anything? Rangers are at the bottom by a wide margin, they are absolutely horrible.

Melee damage is not what casters do.

By your own admission, there is nothing a dervish can contribute to a party that something else cannot do better. Take my ranger example from above. With just one (not even good) build, the ranger is a more "useful" class than the dervish is.

Let's say you've got a dervish and a WE scythe warrior in an outpost, with a 7/8 party ready. Assuming the same equipment and identical players, the warrior will be chosen 100% of the time. There's not even a debate. If there were one it would be:

Warrior: I can do everything he can do, but better
Dervish: I can...uh...make it ever so slightly slower?

There is no situation in which you would ever want to use the dervish over the warrior, so it's effective usefulness as a class is 0.

Now let's say that instead of a dervish, there's a ranger there with the build I described above. Once again, identical players and equivalent equipment. Now it's:

Warrior: I can hit up to 3 targets at once and do massive damage.
Ranger: I may not do anywhere near as much damage, but I can hit more targets and at a distance.

Chances are, the warrior is going to be chosen anyway. But at least the ranger had something he could theoretically have contributed that the warrior could not. So his usefulness as a class is more like 0.1.

That's still a lot better than 0.

If there's never any situation in which a class is worth using, then it doesn't matter how "powerful" it is; worthless is worthless.

As another example, let's say you're a soldier and you have an M-16. Which is more useful to you after that, a knife or a flintlock musket?

The knife. While it may not be a better weapon for killing your enemy than the flintlock musket, it is at least useful for other things (such as for cutting things or as a survival tool). A flintlock musket, on the other hand, is worthless to anyone who has an M-16.

The dervish is that flintlock musket. While it may technically be more "powerful" than many other classes, it's still much worse off than they are.

Of course, none of this addresses the fact that the very assertion that the dervish is "more powerful" than most classes in the game makes no sense, because comparing melee damage (what dervishes do) to caster damage and healing and damage mitigation (what most of the classes in the game do) is like comparing apples to oranges and bananas and dump trucks. They are not interchangeable. Really, the only classes that the dervish can be objectively compared to are those that do the same thing it does: melee damage, just like how you can't objectively compare a healing monk to an SS necromancer.

Scary · Nov 10, 2010, 10:18 PM // 22:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by reaper with no name

So, you admit that the dervish has nothing useful it can offer to any given party in PvE, and yet you think that it isn't a problem?

I bring up DPS in relation to the dervish because as a melee class, that is it's job (with the secondary responsibility of abusing SY). If it cannot do it's job as effectively as the competition, it will be sidelined.

In terms of melee damage, yes, the dervish is the third most powerful class in the game. We all know that. However, I think you're forgetting that there is more to this game than that. There's ranged damage and healing and minions and protection and stuff. None of these things are done well by the dervish either.

Even rangers can offer the party something that no one else can. Every class should be able to do that.

You are misunderstanding me. As an example, I wouldn't nerf SY. It is necessary to give paragons something worth doing in this game.

I don't want to antagonize you, but to help you understand what I'm saying, let's take your last sentence to it's logical conclusion. If all PvE skills were nerfed (which again, I do not want to do), would that prevent you from using them, any more than those skills currently prevent you from using underpowered skills now? No. It's the exact same thing. You don't want them to be nerfed because it would make your characters less effective. Well, what if some (not necessarily all, but some) of those same skills were making other people's characters less effective? There are some skills out there that do to other people exactly what you don't want happening to you.

I see your profession is Necromancer. So, let's say that tomorrow necros get nerfed in such a way that Ritualists suddenly become better with MoP, Orders, Minions, and everything else the necromancer is supposed to do. You wouldn't like that very much, would you? I know I wouldn't (I'd have to start campaigning on behalf of necromancers like I infamously do with the dervish!).

Fortunately, that's not likely to happen. But for Elementalists, this is a daily reality. Ritualists and Necromancers and Mesmers are all out there outdoing them at their job. The only thing keeping Elementalists from being sidelined even more than dervishes are is the fact that they happen to have an elite skill which allows them to spam infuse health and prots or Orders (for this reason, as overpowered as ER is right now, I would not want to nerf it; it's a necessary evil, as many overpowered skills in this game are).

Some skills that are overpowered are acceptable, because they do not make other classes less effective at their jobs by comparison. In fact, some classes depend on PvE skills just to remain relevant (I once again point to the Paragon as an example of this). But then there are others such as the old Ursan, which leave other classes out in the cold by rendering them obsolete. These are the skills that are bad and need to be nerfed.

Wel can't argue with that. But I still don't think nerfing PvE skills will bring the solution in this matter. Might be better like they tried before with the water magic skills.
To buff or change some Ele skills in the way that they getting superb in combination with energy storage skills, So they are only effective used by a Ele.

But yea, this is gonna be a never ending story. And I do respect everybody;s opinion, So keep on the good work

Ensign · Nov 10, 2010, 10:33 PM // 22:33

Trust me, I get it, I know that Dervishes are boring and have a terrible primary attribute, terrible energy that makes you unable to use terrible skills. I would not want to play a Dervish because there's nothing to them and I can't imagine it's fun.

However, you do get 16 Scythe Mastery, and you get to put up AoHM to multiply damage by 70%, and then Asura Scan for another 70%, and then you mash your face on the keyboard to autoattack for 100 damage, hitting 3 targets, with buffs multiplying and charging adrenaline like crazy and all that. Yeah, you're 3 PvE skills and a scythe, and it rolls over everything.

I'd love for the class to be more than 3 PvE skills and a scythe, that would make it a lot more fun, deep and interesting; but the fact is those 3 PvE skills are ridiculous, you have the best weapon, and anything that can't utilize those doesn't come close.

Linking AoHM to Mysticism would at least make this the province of the Dervish alone, so they'd have a unique role, even if they still were shallow and boring.

I love the Mesmer skill set. Unfortunately, it's inferior to the PvE skill set, which dominates the power discussion. Sure, you can run Panic, but then you aren't refreshing your PvE skills every 5 seconds. Every caster that isn't pooping as fast as he can is refreshing his PvE skills with AP. What their own skill kit is barely matters; you'll only use one, maybe two class skills. Necros use Mark of Pain, Assassin, then AP and shoutspike when the MoP has outlived his usefulness. Eles drop an Eruption or start a target and debuff with cracked armor, then AP and shoutspike, powered by GLE. Mesmers have a deeper toolkit for that, but their energy doesn't hold up.

Now if you removed PvE skills (as with heroes) then Mesmers are far and away the best caster (sans poopers), but the game does have PvE skills, and the dominant ones, well, dominate.

Rangers, well, you have like a dozen good skills. They're deep and interesting, very flexible, and are the canary in the coal mine in PvP - when they go, the format is about to get bad. But in PvE, those skills are, well...DShot is not Panic, Natural Stride is not Shadow Form, and Barrage let's you pretend you have a slow attacking scythe without AoHM. There are hideously broken skills that do everything the Ranger does a whole lot better. You have nothing to abuse, and can't even cast Heal Party like a Monk can.

Monks should be very grateful that there isn't a broken PvE party heal or they'd be relegated to whatever it is you farm with Prot gimmicks these days.

NerfHerder · Nov 10, 2010, 10:46 PM // 22:46

@reaper, my apologies if I took anything out of context, but I think I got the heart of the subject matter.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jaigoda

Just one thing to note - If Sins and Wars can't use AoHM, it'll put them waaay below Dervs. It's more than a 50% actual damage increase, even at modest rank. Plus, Dervs would have an open secondary, which would pretty much deem Crit Scythe completely obsolete. That would probably reorder the top 3 as Derv; Sin; War. Whether that would be a good thing or not is up for decision.

From an attack skill spamming perspective, Its a closer match than it would appear. Even w/o AoHM a scythe sin will hit criticals almost every time. Thats roughly 41% increase in damage. Plus an easily maintainable 33% IAS and the ability to use WS/RS as an elite. The Dervish can only attack skill spam with ZV, leaving no room for a IAS(w/o penalties or booze) or Elite. As it stands now, a sin can still roughly do as much damage as a Dervish w/o AoHM(test it yourself). Either way, it would be a simple solution to make the Dervish the best with his native weapon.

There is a reason why Critical Agility and "TNTF!" are class specific. AoHM should be no exception.

Still Number One · Nov 10, 2010, 10:49 PM // 22:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by NerfHerder

PvP Changes

Most of my XP is in "non PvP-PvP"(AB,JQ,RA,FA). I use to "Press B" alot just to see how the PvP meta is evolving. As anything GvG or HA related is bound to effect the PvP I like to do. Only problem is, I dont think the PvP meta game is evolving at all. It seems pretty stagnant. I see the same cookie cutter builds all the time. My suggestion(i cant wait for the QQs), is to shake up the PvP meta. Make the current meta obsolete or at least add a larger variety viable builds. I have a gut feeling ANet will try to do the latter, and bring in more build options to GvG. When will they do this? not anytime soon.

Ideally, the PvP metagame should shift due to players constantly evolving counters, and then counters to counters and so on. Unfortunately this doesn't happen either because of a lack of an understanding of how to counter certain builds by the pvp community, or the current builds are just so powerful there really is no viable counter to them. My money is on the latter.

Because of that, I will agree that A.Net should shake up the meta, but not in the way I think you are hinting at. I don't know because you don't go right out and say it, but I think you are hoping they would buff certain skills to allow them to see play and hope for more diversification. This does not work and has been proven through the history of guild wars.

The number one issue is that of the power creep. This doesn't just include skills that are currently meta. It includes a lot of skills. Even skills that see absolutely no use right now are still overpowered. They just aren't as overpowered as what is currently being used. Because we are at a stage with so many overpowered skills, you don't see diversification. You see guilds running whatever the most overpowered build is that takes the least amount of effort to use. You nerf what we currently have, they move to the next best option. You buff currently unused skills, they either stay put because the current is still better, or they switch to the new easy-mode build and the current build is abandoned.

So the logical move is to nerf what is in use now, and then let the players find the next best alternative. Then nerf that, and so on and so on. Eventually (depending on how effective the nerfs and how large the updates and how frequent) the power creep can be reduced to the point where individual skill plays a much larger role in getting the most out of your build. Basically, the game needs to get to a point where you can't be as affective as possible (with slight deviations) just by using the skills on your bar.

That is how you see diversification. Because players are better at doing certain things, they can begin to create builds around individual player skill rather than just a bundle of overpowered skills on a bar and you being effective by pushing a button while eating ice cream. Some players would be better at performing split tactics, others spikes, others pressure and shut down, etc.

Right now any team can take the most powerful build and be affective with it, because of how forgiving the skills them self are. If that can be eliminated, players would be forced to play things that best fit their abilities.

Honestly, I doubt it's possible to do in the current stage of Guild Wars. There are just too many overpowered skills floating around out there. And given A.Nets update history and lack of updates currently, it would probably take 20 years before seeing an effect.

Reformed · Nov 10, 2010, 10:54 PM // 22:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by reaper with no name

snip

Now for what really happens...

Random PuG teams are going to take the War in your scenario and make him run Defy Pain or /kick. Outside of Phys teams nobody gives a shit about WE, they do however love some 100b. A lot of it too is habitual frontline selection along with how common Wars were historically and still are today. So your group can either take one of the many Wars hanging around or gamble that the random Derv in the outpost is going to run something besides Avatar of Balthazar. That says nothing for whether or not that Dervish will even have the skills available to run ZV/SY!.

Nobody is going to take a Ranger for anything, ever, unless they just don't care about party composition and want some randomway. Ranged damage doesn't even factor into it.

Jaigoda · Nov 10, 2010, 11:14 PM // 23:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by reaper with no name

Let's say you've got a dervish and a WE scythe warrior in an outpost, with a 7/8 party ready. Assuming the same equipment and identical players, the warrior will be chosen 100% of the time. There's not even a debate. If there were one it would be:

Warrior: I can do everything he can do, but better
Dervish: I can...uh...make it ever so slightly slower?

There is no situation in which you would ever want to use the dervish over the warrior, so it's effective usefulness as a class is 0.

Now let's say that instead of a dervish, there's a ranger there with the build I described above. Once again, identical players and equivalent equipment. Now it's:

Warrior: I can hit up to 3 targets at once and do massive damage.
Ranger: I may not do anywhere near as much damage, but I can hit more targets and at a distance.

Chances are, the warrior is going to be chosen anyway. But at least the ranger had something he could theoretically have contributed that the warrior could not. So his usefulness as a class is more like 0.1.

That's still a lot better than 0.

If there's never any situation in which a class is worth using, then it doesn't matter how "powerful" it is; worthless is worthless.

You're using bad logic. Sure, in that very specific situation you'd pick a Warrior over a dervish, but in situations where the warrior is worse than the derv or the is no warrior at all, the derv becomes far more desirable, and you'd probably pick him over a caster over something. A ranger on the other hand, is semi-versatile, but is crappy at all of it, so you'd never pick him.

Here's a better example:
A dervish and some casters are sitting in a mission. You gladly take the dervish because he can deal craploads of damage easily and quickly, and can still pump SY just as well as anyone. You don't care that he might be worse than Wars or Sins, because Wars and Sins aren't around currently.

On the other hand:
A ranger and some casters are sitting in a mission. You take a caster, because rangers are just plain godawful. You don't care that he's better at using a bow than anybody, because bows are absolutely terrible in PvE.

A third situation:
A ranger an dervish are sitting in a mission, and no one else. You take the Dervish, because they actually do something, rather than firing the equivelent of 6 foam pellets at monsters (a.k.a. Barrage).

Here's another example:
You don't have ANYTHING, and you've got access to a taser (the Derv) and a bow and arrow (the Ranger). You pick the taser because, even though it's not as deadly as guns and stuff, you don't have access to any guns! You don't pick the bow because while it does have a niche role of being ranged, it's so ineffective compared to the technology power creep of the taser that it's not worth taking no matter what.

In other words, if I had to pick between ANYONE and a ranger to team with, I would pick anyone but the ranger. If I had to pick between anyone and a dervish, I'd only not pick the dervish if there was a good warrior or good sin around, which is somewhat likely not to happen, considering how dead GW is at this point.

NerfHerder · Nov 10, 2010, 11:19 PM // 23:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by Still Number One

.... I will agree that A.Net should shake up the meta, but not in the way I think you are hinting at. I don't know because you don't go right out and say it, but I think you are hoping they would buff certain skills to allow them to see play and hope for more diversification. This does not work and has been proven through the history of guild wars.....

I dont have enough GvG xp to say exactly what should be changed. But, I do know enough that the meta should change every so often. And that nerfing everything is never the answer. Just like Buffing everything is never the answer. Like PvE, its always a careful balance of Nerfs and Buffs that make the best updates and improve balance. As to how it should change, ill leave that to the GvG community.

mrmango · Nov 10, 2010, 11:23 PM // 23:23

Hmmm, face-rolling.
Yeah I guess face-rolling will get nerfed.

lol jk

Karate Jesus · Nov 10, 2010, 11:24 PM // 23:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by NerfHerder

I dont have enough GvG xp to say exactly what should be changed. But, I do know enough that the meta should change every so often. And that nerfing everything is never the answer. Just like Buffing everything is never the answer. Like PvE, its always a careful balance of Nerfs and Buffs that make the best updates and improve balance. As to how it should change, ill leave that to the GvG community.

The GvG meta changes whether Anet updates skills or not. Sure, builds like Balanced stay pretty similar over time, but things still change.

Hexes have been meta for quite a while now, though.

Jaigoda · Nov 11, 2010, 12:58 AM // 00:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by NerfHerder

Like PvE, its always a careful balance of Nerfs and Buffs

Um..... Wut?

Boogz · Nov 11, 2010, 02:13 AM // 02:13

monks are in serious demand for buffing, specially with all this hex-mania everywhere. Even if I bring veil + hex breaker i'll still be screwed by VoR spammers + the massive caster-hate with psychic instability. Hell, once I went HA against a team with 2 copies of Shame and Diversion. I couldn't do anything but wand people to death.

also necros are in a huge demand for viable elites for PvE. SS, discord and aura of the lich are the only elites worth bringing

air magic need some serious buffing, same goes to dervishes, specially when it comes to energy management

WarcryOfTruth · Nov 11, 2010, 02:22 AM // 02:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by Boogz

SS, discord and aura of the lich are the only elites worth bringing

Funny... oh wait, you were serious...?!

Necromancers have tremendous versatility...

HigherMinion · Nov 11, 2010, 02:40 AM // 02:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by WarcryOfTruth

Funny... oh wait, you were serious...?!

Necromancers have tremendous versatility...

Plenty of average necro bars....

1.OoU Minion Master
2. Minion Bomber support
3.AotL Lazy Minion Master
4.Mark of Pain Nuker
5. Spiteful Spirit+7 randomskills nuker
6. Icy Veins cold nuker
7. Discord *If you insist*
8.MELEEMANCER?!?!

Also, it's Water that needs help the most... Air is fine. As fine as elemental damage goes.

What have I missed?